RACE IN PITTSBURGH: CURRENT ISSUES AND INITIATIVES
Monday, February 26, 2001
PRESIDENT COHON:
My name is Jared Cohon, I am the president of Carnegie Mellon University. It is my great pleasure to welcome you here to this panel discussion on Race in Pittsburgh: Current Issues and Initiatives. This is part of the ALCOA Foundation Visiting Speaker Series which is an ongoing series of speeches and events that we have funded by the ALCOA Foundation for which we are very, very thankful. The ALCOA Foundation Visiting Speaker Series is part of a broader series that we call the University Lecture Series which happens every Monday and Thursday in this room. Its purpose is to bring people into our midst that will challenge our thinking, broaden our thinking, and in other ways enrich this intellectual community. The ALCOA Speaker Series in particular is intended to be cross-disciplinary and as well to attract academics and professionals of color to our campus. It is one of the efforts being pursued by the Diversity Advisory Council (DAC) an entity that we created about a year and half ago to lead our efforts to make CMU a more diverse institution. This speaker series is managed and directed by Nancy Klancher, the director of the Graduate Programs Office. Nancy's gonna be flitting, oh she's actually sitting. Do that again Nancy.One of the things that we heard from many people in advance of this event was the desirability of having a clear way to follow up on the discussion today. I'll be saying more about that later; I just want to let you know we've not forgotten about it, we'll be getting to it.
Well, let me get right to the business at hand, which is our panel discussion, and that means our panelists. Let me introduce each one to you, I'll do it in alphabetical order so as to not show any favoritism.
Esther Bush is the president and CEO of the Urban League of Pittsburgh. She's been in that position since late 1994. She's a native Pittsburgher, graduated from Westinghouse High School Here in Pittsburgh. After working as a high school teacher and later as a college administrator and corporate consultant, she joined the Urban League, starting in New York City in 1980 where she was assistant director of the labor education advancement program and later director of the Staten Island Branch for NY's Urban League, and then after that director of the Manhattan branch. She became president and CEO of the Urban League of Greater Hartford before she came back to her hometown to lead our Urban League chapter. And I want to tell you as a member of her board, she does a wonderful job and it's something that we all can be very proud of. It's notable that Esther was the first female to serve in each of her last four positions in the Urban League. She's a pioneer in a lot of ways. During her time here as President of Urban League of Pittsburgh she's brought financial stability to our chapter; she's brought credibility; she's published two books, a directory of people who could be good candidates for board positions,very effective project that they've taken on; she's sponsored three trips to Africa which have been very very effective. Esther has been a voice of reason, a coalition builder, and a force for positive change in our community, and I'm delighted she could be with us today. Please join me in welcoming Esther Bush.
Justin Johnson is a judge on the Superior Court of Pennsylvania. He also recently completed a concurrent 2 year term on the Pennsylvania court of Judicial discipline. Judge Johnson received both his Bachelor's Degree and his JD degree from the University of Chicago, which we do not hold against him, except when we play them in sports. After working as a partner in two different law firms he was appointed judge in 1980, so he has served on the bench for over 20 years. Judge Johnson is very involved in our community in many many ways, I'll just mention a few particularly relevant ones: he serves on the boards of the Urban League of Pittsburgh, the United Way of Allegheny County, the Princeton Theological Seminary, Mary Holmes College, Pennsylvania Bar Institute, and I'm delighted to tell you he is also a life trustee of CMU. Justin, Thank you very much for being here.
Councilman Sala Udin is a native of the Hill District here in Pittsburgh. He was first elected to our City Council in May of 1995 and was reelected in 1997. His council district includes the Hill, Downtown, Uptown, the Strip, Manchester, Central Northside, California Crookrun, Allegheny West and parts of West and South, so he encompasses a large portion of our city and a very diverse part of our city. He has served on and is chairman of City Council's finance and budget committee and he is also on the board of the Urban League development authority and the housing authority as well. Councilman Udin has been involved in politically active activities, particularly related to the struggle. It goes back to the early 1960s when he was an active member of the civil rights movement in the deep south. He is especially well-known, I think every Pittsburgher knows him, for his efforts on behalf of the contracting and employment opportunities for minorities and women including his leadership on the Plan-B oversight committee focusing on jobs in the stadium and convention center projects. In 1996 Councilman Udin introduced the legislation to create an independent citizen police review board, and in fact, Mayor Murphy appointed the review board in the winter of 1997. Councilman Udin has been the voice of conscience in this city and I am just delighted to welcome him here to our campus for this panel.
Okay, you're tired of listening to me, I'm tired of listening to me. Look forward to hearing from our panelists. Let me just explain to you how we have proceeded up to this point and how we are going to proceed this afternoon. We contacted, or attempted to contact, all students faculty staff at CMU, and several local "friends" of the university using primarily Everett Tademy's network of people out in our community. We told them about this panel and asked them to convey to us the questions and issues they would like to see the panel address. We were very pleased by the response which was heavy, a lot of good and difficult questions. We have done our best to compile and sort and pull them together in a coherent way so that we could cover just about everything in the limited time that we have. I'm going to pose the question or set of questions and then I'll call on one of our panel members to start the answer but anybody can chime in and take a crack at it. We'll do that until about 5 o'clock and cover as much of this territory as we can. At that time, I'll do my best to bring it to a halt and open it up to questions from the floor and commentary from the floor and we'll keep going 'til approximately 5:30 after which there will be a reception. Any questions? I mean, I don't mean, you know what I mean, I got lots of questions.
Okay we're going to start with the topic of the history of race relations in Pittsburgh and also Pittsburgh's relative standing on this matter relative to other cities in this country. One of our questioners, one of our respondents I should say, claimed the following "Pennsylvania has a bigger KKK membership than the state of Mississippi" I don't know if it is true or not, but it's a provocative statement which leads to the question: What do you think about race relations in this city? What are your views of what they're like now, and how do race relations in Pittsburgh compare to race relations in other cities that you know in this country? Esther, I'll put you on the spot.
ESTHER BUSH:
Good Afternoon. I first really have to thank Dr. Cohon for convening this group. This really makes the kind of statement that needs to be made in Pittsburgh and it's very relevant to indeed the topics that we are talking about today. When you think about Pittsburgh Pennsylvania, just think about Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania--and then think about the places that you typically think of when you think about the KKK. Now I need you to stop and understand that Pittsburgh has the second highest number of active white supremacy groups in the country. The second highest number--Pennsylvania, thank you, Pittsburgh makes it even worse, Pennsylvania. But to Sala's point, I've been back home 6 years there have been threats of the KKK marching here on two different occasions, right here in the late 90s, that is something for us to think about. I have a statistic here, that a couple of years ago a study was done and it showed that there were 31 white active supremacy groups in the state in 65 communities in 35 counties, that is 49% of all of the counties in Pennsylvania. There is a race relations problem in Pittsburgh and throughout Pennsylvania. And if you look, you said when did it start, just quickly let me go back and share with you that the Urban League of Pittsburgh was formed here in 1918, we started because African-Americans, then Negroes, were moving from the south to the north to take jobs in the steel mills because of the war. Because of housing, because of employment situations etc, people black and white joined together to form the Urban League to help people find homes and to find housing and to help them to really get familiar with the city of Pittsburgh. There is a long history here, and a lot of people sometimes even refer to us as "up north." What's wrong with Pittsburgh right now, is too much business as usual which keeps perpetuating racism and too much denial--we don't want to believe it is in our hometown.
JUSTIN JOHNSON:
Jerry, if you'll forgive a personal reference to put my observation in context: the KKK marched past my parents house in 1922, the address 1131 Ross Ave, that was because they'd had the temerity to purchase a home in a formerly all-white district there in the borough. I can remember my father saying that he would sleep with a gun on the table between his bed and my mother's bed. I leap ahead to about 5 years ago when I'd been invited to address the students in a central county here in Pennsylvania--Juniata College in Hutchinson County, I think it is, Huntington County. I remember my wife and I had gone up there and were having dinner the night before I was to speak and they were telling me about the KKK activities in that county, I just couldn't believe it. I said that's not possible, Huntington, Pennsylvania, 1995, but it was there. So I come then when you ask the question where are we today in race relations in Pittsburgh, I make the point that although the KKK may not be marching openly down the streets as I look at what's going on in our judicial system there is a possibility that we are not as close to justice as some of our sister states and some of our sister cities. Because I think that we need to look at results, we need to look at what isn't accomplished in determining whether the KKK is dead. Folks can have the KKK in their hearts and in their minds in the same way that other people might have Allah or Jesus Christ in their mind. I think the KKK is possibly even right here on this campus, although not openly and in spite of the good work that's being done by the present staff to make things much better.
JARED COHON:
Judge, I may have a question for you to follow up on this issue of the criminal justice system. I want to give the Councilman a chance. Do you comment on this Councilman Udin?
SALA UDIN:
Yes. I would make a distinction between Klan activity in the north, Particularly in Pennsylvania and Klan activity in the South--which I am painfully familiar with. I think whoever posed the question probably did not have the statistics quite right. I know that there are a greater number of hate groups in Pennsylvania than there are in Mississippi. However, I think that the person posing the question also inferred that there were more Klanmembers in Pennsylvania than there are in Mississippi. My experience in Mississippi, where I lived for 5 years, would be that there may be more hate groups in Pennsylvania, a greater no. of different groups. I doubt however whether or not there are more Klansmen in Pennsylvania than there are in Mississippi. Mississippi will have fewer hategroups, but their numbers will be significantly larger, because the Klan activity has filtered it's way much deeper into the social life and religious life in Mississippi than in Pennsylvania, in Pennsylvania there's gonna be a group of people in the woods or wherever they organize. They will not be as dispersed throughout the society as the Klan will be in the South. There'll be just a few organizations in the South, the White Citizens council, the KKK, and maybe one or two others, but those are huge organizations in the South and I doubt whether or not those in Pennsylvania outnumber numerically. Whether or not that is an important point I don't know but I would make one further distinction if I may. I would make a distinction between Klan activity and race relations in Pittsburgh, and the question links the two, I would unlink the two. I am more concerned about race relations between the general population of African Americans and other non-white Americans and the general white population in Pittsburgh, than I am concerned about the Klan activity in and around Pittsburgh. I'm more concerned about the institutional racism that exists everyday than I am about some crazy idiots who come downtown and demonstrate on the Courthouse steps and they couldn't get more than 6 people to come with them. Everyday we face institutional racism that is subtle oftentimes unseen, but always painfully felt, and that is more the enemy than these silly people running around in these sheets.
JARED COHON:
Thank you. Before I pose the question to you, Judge, let me say again to those standing in the back, there are seats up here. I would dare say that our coats would be happy to give up their seats as well. If you care to sit down, so please do not hesitate to come down here, you will not be disturbing us.Thank you very much for saying what you did at the end there, Councilman Udin. I think it's a very good point. And certainly, I don't want to sensationalize racial issues, but I am going to power one more sort of "in your face" race issue, and ask the Judge to take it on, as well as something else, and that's the 1995 Jonny Gammage Incident. It's such and important one in this city, because, well the Judge will explain why, but it was a very visible one, it captures, not only overt racism but I think also some of the subtle racism that the Councilman was referring to. And I know the judge knows a lot about this because I have heard him talk about it before. Let me actually, Judge Johnson while you are composing your answer, expand the question even further to make it even more difficult for you. The questioner who raised it, posed the question "what have been the consequences of the Gammage incident, good or bad? Or maybe both? What is the relationship between the Pittsburgh Police--the police in the Pittsburgh region, not just the city of Pittsburgh police, and the black community? What are the actual problems? The perceived problems? And then, I would like to suggest, Judge, that you pick up on the passing reference you made before to the Criminal Justice system, and what you see there in the way of Racism. Now this could be a Ph.D. Dissertation or a half-hour response, but maybe you can do it in five. And maybe you could just remind people about the Gammage incident--not all of us were here at that time.
JUSTIN JOHNSON:
Jonny Gammage involved a situation where a man driving a car owned by a relative was proceeding through a suburb in the South Hills and he was stopped by Municipal Police officer. After he exited his car, events occurred through which he lost his life. The police officers, aware that he was dead, indicated that he had been violating the law by making some jerking movements I believe with his car which caused the police officer to want to further examine, and I believe when he came out of the car, they indicated that they thought he was holding some weapon in his hand, it turns out that is was nothing more than a CB radio--I believe. One thing that impressed me at the time--this goes to institutional racism to which Councilman Udin referred--is I would read the newspapers, and the newspapers indicated that Mr. Gammage had been making jerking movements with his car. The paper didn't report that the officer who stood to stand under a murder charge had said that Gammage was making jerking movements with his car. And the newspapers came out with the fact that they had found some contraband, some drugs, in the car. And I believe that got more publicity than the fact that it was later agreed that they had been planted there by the police officers. The trial, although there were two trials, there were trials involving defendants at two different times. One trial as I recall was moved out of Allegheny County, on the Gammage matter was it not, or was that the Grimmit case? In the Gammage case. They moved it over to a bedroom community outside of Philadelphia. To some of us, with our background, were not surprised when that jury came in not-guilty. The charge, on thing interesting, to me, was that a grand jury had been convened, and the Grand Jury determined that the three police officers should be tried on a first-degree murder count. The DA of this county decided that there was not enough evidence there for a first degree or second degree and they tried him on manslaughter. And of course that went through a lot of procedural situations where the bottom line was that none of the three officers were convicted of any wrong doing. And for me the Gammage was part of a "trilogy" you might say, because after Gammage we have the Grimmit case, and then after Grimmit we go back to the first case--Charmo. And if you try and put them together what you're really asking yourself is as a community what is our perception about what is happening? You have to ask yourself what kind of process we are demanding of the community, and you have to ask yourself relatively speaking, where do we stand in relationship to other communities, and I think it is fair to say that there aren't many communities in the US where there have been 3 incidents within a 10-year period involving the deaths of African-Americans where no one has yet to be convicted of any wrongdoing in a criminal court, and I am disappointed by that. I am disappointed by the situation where Judge Jim Roudy from what some people might call the conservative community of Beaver Co, looked at the Gammage second case and said new trial and then we have another Judge coming in from another county looking at the whole thing and said that the trial judge had committed error and we're not going to permit another trial. So that I think that those of us with robes have to take a lot of the responsibility for what happened, but it can't happen except for the perception of a number of people as to what was occurring there at that time right outside of the city of Pittsburgh, in Brentwood.I had the situation within the last 14 months, driving along Ellsworth avenue, where I was pulled over--Driving while Black. I showed the very courteous police officer my owner's card, my driver's license, didn't have too much to say, she didn't have too much to say, I don't know whether it was my age or my curtness or what I didn't get a ticket because I don think I had done anything wrong but that was right along Ellsworth Avenue in Shadyside where I live, so I don't kid myself that we have gotten past a lot of this. When you talk about Criminal Justice I am for myself sometimes itemizing how far I can go, because as a lawyer I'm trained that there are certain rules that you follow in any situation and you apply those rules to facts and you come out with certain results. I do remember one case specifically where a judge--Judge Inagart, who is now sitting on the 3rd circuit--had given a black woman an aggregate sentence of 6-12 years for shoplifting some stuff from a shopping center up in Erie. And I said to myself I can't think of a legal rule for dissenting, but I'll be damned if can understand how anybody can get a 6 year minimum for stealing a couple of cartons of cigarettes and a pair of designer jeans worth less than 20 dollars, but I think more and more--and I am rambling Jerry, forgive me for that--as I get older it might be that I will be more insistent in some of my dissents in trying to bring to the attention of everybody what we are lacking in our criminal justice system. I would say if you look at the spectrum, we appear to be 10 to 2 on Charmo, so we're making progress--10-2 on Charmo. If you go back to Medgar Evers, that man had to be tried 3 times and it was 35 years before we got a guilty conviction and that was a 7-card lay down from the get-go. That man was guilty and it took 3 juries to convict him, so I guess if I were to predict it might be that within 15-20 years Pittsburgh & Allegheny county will have the kind of judges and DAs and jurors where we can do the same thing here.
SALA UDIN:
I have a comment on the implications of race relations relative to the Gammage case and I have a question for the Judge. The comment is that one of the worst times that I have felt in terms of race relations in Pittsburgh have to do with the anger in the African American community immediately following Jonny Gammage's murder, an one of the best times I have had relative to race relations was also connected to the Gammage case when there was such a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic demonstration of outrage against the court rulings and against the Jonny Gammage situation, I was born and raised in Pittsburgh-- I have never seen that many white folks and black folks come together in a demonstration of outrage against a black man being killed by a police officer in my life, that was a first for me and it was the best feeling I have had about race relations in Pittsburgh. But as you've been talking Judge, is it okay if I?In an academic setting I guess this is okay, it occurred to me while you were speaking. You mentioned the trilogy of killings and I wondered whether or not there may be an influence on people who are admittedly already unstable in the community responding to such a trilogy resulting in on the one hand a Robert Taylor, taking a gun and going out into the community and killing white people and a Richard Baumhammers, getting a different message from the same trilogy that it may be alright to kill non-whites, and going out and getting a gun and killing non-whites. I wonder what impact social events like that trilogy have on the people, especially people who are marginally psychologically unstable.
JUSTIN JOHNSON:
Well you say marginally, I think Taylor and Baumhammers are both over the hill. I never made that connection, I think I'd be frightened if I did. We're really in bad trouble if we bring together those three cases, the results of those three cases with the results for those three cases with those two very tragic situations. Both Taylor and Baumhammers, they are going to get trials, but their conduct, their behavior to me is very abberational. I think if we could probe there minds I would be very surprised if they connected that in any way specifically to the Trilogy. I think all of us are affected by the trilogy. I tend to be more pessimistic after the third case than I was after the first and after the second and that can affect my relationships with other people but that's within my training and my knowledge to behave myself. You know, keep the bad thoughts up here
JARED COHON:
Actually Esther if I could, I'd like to change topics just slightly but pose the question to you, and this will end I hope this first phase and we can move to maybe some more forward looking things. President Bush...Councilman Udin, Judge Johnson, President Bush. You have worked for the Urban League in both NYC and Hartford an have traveled more broadly than that of course an through the national Urban League meetings I think you get a lot of comparative information. In your view, how does Pittsburgh compare when it comes to this issue of Race relations?
ESTHER BUSH:
Unfortunately, Pittsburgh as a major urban city or a mid-size urban center is unfortunately at the forefront of some of these things, I think immediately about racial profiling, about police offices and excessive force. When the National Urban League president convened a national press conference in DC, to ask the president, then President Clinton directly to address this, unfortunately he called me as president of the Urban League of Pittsburgh, he called the president of the Urban League in New York because of the D'Abalo case where he was shot in the doorway and he called the Urban League president out of Jacksonville, Florida because of the situation down there. And unfortunately, Pittsburgh has gotten, you said 3, but when you look there are literally a list of African- Americans that just do not have the kind of publicity that these three cases that Judge Johnson was talking about where they have dies or have been injured in the hands of police officers. And so when we look at it, unfortunately, Pittsburgh is like many other cities, but I would daresay in too many situations, Jared, we lead the pack. And I say that very regretfully, because around the Jonny Gammage piece, well between the Gammage an the Grimmit case, I personally have been to Washington, DC four times, to march, to talk to the justice dept, to try to get some right out of the wrong, there are issues that are systemic in our society that are national, that deal with the police department and the criminal justice system. That's proven, that's not pointing a finger, that is proven, and if you look case by case, and I can't help but mention crack vs. cocaine--How dare you put me in jail because I am too poor to afford cocaine. And that's basically what you're saying, so as we look down the whole list of things, Pittsburgh is unfortunately in a troubled situation but there are so many other cities that are right there with us, and indeed in the US, it is an issue.
JUSTIN JOHNSON:
Let me suggest this: coming away from crime if you just look at our political structure here and compare it to other cities. I remember going to Atlanta, Georgia in 1985 where a Judge I had met at a conference in Virginia was escorting me around the city. I couldn't believe as she introduced me to the black commissioner of police, the black head of education, there was a Black mayor down there. If you went through how Atlanta was being run 15 years ago, it's not that African Americans were necessarily running the whole town but there was a healthy contribution, you could even say a majority contribution by African Americans in that city.. Now when I come to Pittsburgh I consider the demographics and I have to think back how many years to the last time we had a candidate a black candidate for mayor, and an extremely well qualified candidate--not that he should have won, okay--but extremely well qualified and if you look through all of our agencies and you look through our government, our hospitals our universities, you're not going to find the same degree of day-to-day quality participation that you're finding in communities of equal size, and that's one reason we need to hang our heads.
JARED COHON:
This is an excellent transition to the next set of issues I wold like to move us to: workforce development, development generally, economic development, the K-12 system, Pittsburgh school system. Maybe Councilman Udin we could ask you to start on this because you have been so involved in this particular set of issues. Maybe you could tell us how we are doing, in terms of workforce development, workforce development that moves us towards a more diverse workforce and that provides opportunity to all citizens in this city.
SALA UDIN:
The news is not good and I think that those who are interested in the historical development of race relations and economic relations in this city would do well to go back and trace the development of the economy, the steel economy and other small industrial economies of this city and of this region and the impact that that economy on attracting immigrants from Europe--especially Irish, Poles, and Italians--and the limited impact that it had on attracting African-Americans and Latinos and Asians. And the struggle that people have had around the economy and as the economy goes up and down and the social relations between those groups also goes up and down. It's a very interesting history and explains a lot about what the conditions are today. But you also have to take a look at both the positive and negative role that organized labor has had on the economy of the region. Organized labor has brought tremendous benefits to workers as organized workers, has created a number of very, very important and positive benefits, but also organized labor, because it is a social organization has been subjected to some of the same shortcomings in terms of racial integration of non-whites into organized labor that the rest of society has, and as a result when we come forward with legislation in the 1990's in Pittsburgh, legislation which seems logical and non-controversial, that says if there is a construction project that is funded by city tax dollars then 35% at least (we started with 50%) then 35% at least should be residents of the City of Pittsburgh. Their tax dollars supported the construction project so at least they should get some jobs since right now only 10% of the construction employees are from the city and 90% are from the suburbs, when it comes to public tax supported construction why not let's use that opportunity to give residents some jobs, and while we are at it--we added on to the legislation--we also want 25% of the jobs for minorities an 10% for women. Now that's not so controversial, that ain't so radical, but the labor unions, the construction building trade industry, came down on the politicians in this region with all 4 feet, and they buckled and they caved in, and as a result, the legislation to get such a democratic piece of legislation on the ballot was voted down in council. And opposed by the mayor and the City Council president and 4 more members of council. It had to be put on as a referendum for the people to vote on. Now of course to show how out of touch those politicians are with the people. The people of this city voted for it so overwhelmingly that if you took the black vote out of the election, it still passes. So it was the influence of the political power of the building trades union it was not necessarily how well the council members and other politicians represent the constituency. So we are still fighting to get that referendum implemented along with a program of honest inclusion of minority contractors in the Construction industry and monitoring it and tracking it and having effective sanction to those who violate it, and being able to honestly certify companies. The construction companies have become very, very slick. As soon as affirmative action set asides, etc, were passed a lot of white male owned construction companies just flipped the script and decided, yeah I still own it and I still run it but now I am going to call it a WBE. I'll put 51% of the stock in my wife's name I'm still gonna run it but now we're gonna take advantage of it. And that is how most of the WBE's in the construction field have become certified, because women in construction have as much trouble as blacks and other non-whites, you don't have that many women coming up the ranks to own construction companies, so it is very, very difficult. It's very, very tough and we are still fighting that battle and those who are willing to take a stand will pay a price because the construction industry has sent out the word that is anyone takes a stand; they are going to send them a message.
JARED COHON:
Is there anything working either in the public sector or the private sector? Any Urban League programs or others that you see as promising and having an impact?
ESTHER BUSH:
There are always, always efforts to train people, to get them into apprenticeship programs, etc. But it is never sufficient to compare to how much that we have been out placed and just not allowed to come in. Every single corporation will show you an Affirmative Action policy will tell you how they have tried so hard to recruit African American and other minorities; can show you programs, but you just walk their halls. Are you telling me that corporations do not know how to recruit? And so the conversation--we have conversations all the time, it's my job to have conversations, and people talk to me because they respect the Urban League and they might have an ounce of respect for me. They'll show me the pretty numbers and the efforts but then the numbers really don't change. And it's unfortunate, and I could name names, but there are white corporate execs that move into Pittsburgh who say they have never seen a more segregated town. This is coming from white people who manage many--I am talking high ranking. And please let me just mention the African American Leadership Directory which Dr. Cohon mentioned earlier. The AALD was put together by the Urban League, the NAACP Plans for Progress and the Working Together Consortium with their Building One Economy Committee. And the bottom line is that people keep saying, "I can't find one, I can't find one." So we said you can't find one? Let us give you 168 and now the number is up to 500--here's their picture so you can be clear they are black lets not play any games here. Here's their picture here's a brief bio, and if you need a CPA to serve on your board of directors, here's a black CPA and you know what? He passed the exact same test as the white CPA, isn't that special? The same thing, a black lawyer, did you not pass the same bar exam as whites? And I am not saying this to be funny because we all should be hurting.This is painful because I am a very logical thinker and it is difficult to put racism into logic. I have, and I am saying this sincerely, I have a lot of difficulty putting the two together anything that is logical, I can understand, and even understand when I lose because you have given me the facts, but when it is not logical--and racism is not logical--then there are issues there and this town has a lot of issues. There are a lot of efforts to be applauded but they are too small and have too tiny of an impact all of them need to be blown up. From the organizations like the Urban League--instead of giving me $100,000 to run a program give me $500,000 to run a program so I can not train 10 but I can train 50 or I can train 1000. So it's too little, too late, too frequently, if that answers the question.
JARED COHON:
It answers the question.I could have written this question myself, but I am glad someone else did. What sort of role can institutions of higher learning like Carnegie Mellon take in the community to help improve race relations in the city? What would you like to see Carnegie Mellon do in the next year?
Anybody else want to talk?
SALA UDIN:
My notes say, "Don't run a mile down the beach to collect sand when you can collect it right where you are." Let's look at the community here at CMU. It has grown substantially, and continues to grow, and has made significant progress in terms of reaching out and attracting some of the top students in the world to this institution. But there probably is more that can be done in terms of attracting African American tenured professors, in terms of enlarging and deepening and building on programs and curriculum that relate to black studies and African studies, etc. There is much more that can probably be done in terms of attracting black Pittsburgh students to CMU and I don't accept that because we are trying to attract the brightest students in the world that excludes African American students from Pittsburgh because I believe that some of us will be included in that number, so I think that much can be done and I think that there is a special role that CMU can play in terms of upgrading, especially technological upgrading of the Pittsburgh public school system. If there is a greater relationship between CMU and Pittsburgh schools I believe that Pittsburgh school districts can become known as the #1 school district in the Country in terms of the technological development that it offers it's students. We have the resources, we have the richest foundations in this country, there are cities that would give their eyeteeth for the foundations that we have in this city. We have the institutions--the technological and research and hardware development, institutions and we have the need. Why can't we bring these together and make this the most developed, the best school district in this country.
ESTHER BUSH:
Let me also share, and I first of all need to make a few statements because I serve on CMU Diversity Committee. Jared Cohon personally chairs that comm. I would dare say that this type of forum would not have happened on CMU's campus prior to his coming. When Judge Johnson first introduced me to Dr. Cohon to come on the Urban League board I said "I would be extremely pleased to have the president of such an internationally respected university on the Urban League board of Directors, but Sir, your reputation in the community"--not his, he had just gotten here--but the reputation of this university in the community was not one that I felt that was quite honestly going to help me take the Urban League where I was trying to take it. So just having the name recognition was not doing things for me. He pulled out a sheet of paper very calmly--as he does--and showed me his five points that were his targets for what he was going to do very early on campus. One of them was inclusion. I knew then that a revolution was about to start. And I say this respectfully because it is not easy to change an institution, but it takes leadership, and it takes you having an understanding of being clear about what is appropriate, and the leadership that Dr. Cohon has shown in terms of saying out loud and writing down on paper--because again I get it all the time one-on-one--but writing it down on paper and saying that inclusion is one thing this university is going to be about sent out the right signals. The chairman of the Board of Trustees is now an African American male, my God, I don't know if we can find...have we found another one in the country?
JARED COHON:
You will be happy to know that chairman of the board at Yale is Kurt ....
ESTHER BUSH:
I know Kurt, That's wonderful. See we're stepping in high cotton with Yale. But I say to you sincerely in a town like Pittsburgh, it has made a statement. The Diversity Council and the Diversity Committee here that is looking at students and looking at the faculty and looking at the lifestyle on the campus etc, all these subcommittees are eventually going to impact the entire CMU Community and I would dare say that Dr. Cohon is going to have a tough line to hoe because you are talking about change and you are talking about changing attitudes and I mentioned before "business as usual" But it is going to take every single person in this room and it's going to take impact on people's checks and bonuses and research projects an everything else to bring race relations to where it needs to be on this campus. So from Dr. Cohon the leadership comes but if it doesn't hit the deans and it doesn't hit the department heads and it doesn't hit the students then it's all for naught, but it has to start with the leadership and you have to understand that change must happen. That was a paid political announcement.
JARED COHON:
Thank you Esther. Well we have covered I think 4 or 5 questions out of 28. I do want to open this up because I am sure that many people here have questions and I do not want to squelch them. I want to give you a chance. I have lots more to cover if you don't have questions. Please raise your hands. State your question and I will repeat it because we are videotaping this and your voice may not be picked up by the tape so please go ahead.
AUDIENCE MEMBER:
My question is about private organizations outside of universities. I know that Judge Johnson is very involved in a denomination and a local congregation that's very involved trying to reach out between African American and white communities as well as other communities in Pittsburgh. Can you talk about your wish list for what private organizations could be doing for race relations in Pittsburgh.
JARED COHON:
The question was, for Judge Johnson, what do you think about the role of other private organizations outside of universities and for-profit corporations. What about that big non-government organization sectors...faith groups.
JUSTIN JOHNSON:
I imagine you are referring to my membership at the East Liberty Presbyterian Church, the Cathedral of Hope and our reaching out. One of the reasons that I am comfortable in East Liberty is because right there in the church--that's where the diversity begins, okay? As many of you must know the senior pastor at East Liberty Presbyterian Church is Bob Chestnut a white male, but the associate pastor is Tom Johnson, a Black Baptist Minister, who does a wonderful job there. And as my wife and I attend services at East Liberty, we are not the only blacks and it is not just a few blacks that are there and if I move away from race, one of the things I am extremely comfortable about at East Liberty Presbyterian is that there is no distinction with respect to economic background or social status there is no separation with respect to sexual orientation. Its quite obvious that everybody at the church is coming together because of a desire to spread the Message of Jesus Christ across this community, and it does go outside of the church. You ask me for a wish list, that's a little bit hard for me to get into. I remember and I think Esther was making the point about how things are difficult and there must be participation by everybody involved. I guess if I had a wish list it would be that there would be more Cathedrals of Hope within the city because, if I could share a humorous--Bob Chestnut had gotten a letter about a month & a half ago--I hope he won't mind me mentioning this--where they were inviting him to attend a workshop somewhere in Indiana on diversity and bringing people together and working out in the community and he said in a gentle and nice way Bob responded that the people from Indiana who were running the workshop had come to East Liberty some years before to learn how it was to be done so we have a disconnect right there between our Presbyterian leadership at the presbytery level and at the church level. I guess I would like, I guess on a wish list I would like to see more non-muckamucks involved in private organizations. If you look at the entities: Carnegie Libraries, Phipp's Conservatory, Civic Light Opera, Pittsburgh Symphony, etc, etc most of them are pretty much all muckamucks or spouses of muckamucks, and it seems to me that it would be extremely helpful if in the same way that Bob Chestnut challenges the poor and the oppressed to become members of the church it would be helpful if leaders of these non-profit organizations would challenge ordinary folk to come to the table and help make decisions about what is really important with respect to music in this community, what is important with respect to theatrics, because right now the assumption is continuing the old idea "Father Knows Best" I don't know if that is responsive.ESTHER BUSH:
I have to make one quick statement because the church was mentioned, The most segregated time in American is Sunday Morning. We all know that, but I had to repeat it. So our churches need to be doing a lot better. I know that several years ago the Catholic Church came out with a statement that racism is a sin and then started working doing more outreach to address that issue, but our spiritual leaders absolutely have to have a much more significant role in addressing the issue we are talking about today.
SALA UDIN:
Let me just add to the suggestions. Pittsburgh has blinders on when it comes to anybody other than white people and black people. You would think there is nobody else in this city but white people and black people, Latinos Asians, American Indians are invisible to us. I think that individual organizations and agencies--regardless of the nature or mission of the organization can do a great deal to develop for lack of a better word a "diversity" program within that agency so that it is doing things out of its own sense of mission the way that the president, Jared, has it in his mission to do it, rather than waiting 'til February or some other time when black people are around and press the issue, they do it on their own because it is in their mission. A diversity program can start with a sense of awareness. Building awareness that there is a need for such a program and the way that we have been doing business is out of a white male culture and we need to change it and become more inclusive because that is the way that the world is. The first level is awareness. The second level is to identify the problems and strengths and weaknesses that exist in an organization relative to multi-cultural inclusion. The third step then would be to create some goals and objectives that address those strengths and weaknesses and problems identified in the previous stage. And then commit some serious resources to doing something about the problem. Hire some people put some money out there that train the staff and train the members of the board and are able to pull in some people who can help do something abut it and change the culture of the organization so it is more reflective of the demographic of the city, those are some specifics steps that all organizations can take.
AUDIENCE MEMBER:
Newspapers and television stations can set a tone for a community, they can be racist I suppose, they can fight against racism, they can call attention to a problem, they can ignore a problem, I wonder if the panel would comment on our TV stations and newspapers with respect to racial issues and whether they play a role or ...
JARED COHON:
The question was, What's up with the media? President Bush.
ESTHER BUSH:
I said earlier it is my job to talk. The Urban League and the NAACP and several other organizations have had formal meetings with the media to talk about just what you're saying. When you turn on the television and every time you see on the news is an African American, typically a male doing something negative, something against the law. It is rare that you see something positive. When white children grow up that's all they see, then yes, it feeds into their psyche about what they think about blacks and it feeds into the African American psyche as well. We have had conversations I will say that, and they talk about the news, and typically if it bleeds it leads, but even though they deny that now, they say that they really try not to do that. Channel 2, Gary Kozen, I will say that he puts statements on the news, little commercials that make you think about the importance of race and race related kinds of issues. The media in general is a culprit in this situation, how they portray people, how they portray women, how they portray African Americans. So conversations are ongoing, but you the viewer have the power to make change. If you don't like it, flip the channel. Don't ignore it, don't talk about it, flip the channel and write a letter. Your voice is louder than the Urban League and the NAACP. Around the Baumhammers and the Taylor incident we had to go over to one of the radio stations because what they were talking about on the radio was to us would have incited additional problems in the community. If you listen to the tape that was played in terms of what he would have done if he were a police officer, and I am talking about a talk show host. There's a great deal of work that needs to be done we are having conversation but again your voices are louder than the organizations'
SALA UDIN:
Esther said it all.
AUDIENCE MEMBER:
I have a question about AIDS in Pittsburgh. The pattern of AIDS is that the larger number of cases are white, but disproportionally the burden of cases in proportion to African American presence in this region is on people of color on this region. We are at a time of opportunity. The national NAACP has charged the local chapter to take on AIDS as an issue. Three weeks ago in Pittsburgh there was a conference bringing black clergy and people who work on AIDS together to meet and talk, and some very alarming figures have come out recently about race and HIV, not just in Pittsburgh but in other cities among young black gay men. And I just wanted you to put the issue of AIDS in Pittsburgh in the context of race relations in Pittsburgh as you see it.
JARED COHON:
While you are thinking about it, let me just restate the question. Data shows that HIV/AIDS is more prevalent among populations of color. Please comment on that.
SALA UDIN:
A difficult difficult question because it stirs up in us some of the scariest taboos that we would rather sit on and hide rather than talk bout. Interestingly as there have been more programs to talk about AIDS in Africa, AIDS among African Americans that the largest number of new cases are among African Americans and the largest proportionate growth of AIDS among Africans. One of the problems that has kept the AIDS virus able to spread as fast as it has spread has been ignorance. And among gay men, gay men who hide their homosexuality in bisexual relationships is higher among African American gay men than any other group of gay men, any other ethnic group of gay men because of the environment of homophobia and the penalties that you pay if you come out as a gay man. And since we've been, this year, the last couple months we've been talking a lot about AIDS within the African American community I have also noticed, and this is a challenge to our Churches, and I love our churches they are the most important institutions in our community, but I've also notices and increasing amount of condemnation of homosexuality from the pulpit in black churches in the last few months. Now I don't know if that is a response to the increases education or publicity that's been out there around the black community but I have noticed a certain increase. And until we as a community are able to talk about homosexuality and bisexuality and drug use and needle sharing in a less condemning way, people are going to stay in the closet an stay in these closeted relationships and the virus is gonna spread because that's what the virus wants in order to spread and I just keep trying to challenge us to be able to talk about these things openly, but it is just very very difficult because it gets at the most fundamental taboos.
JUSTIN JOHNSON:
Sala, do you think it's possible that our lack of progress here is tied into the misperception as to where the total problem is, and what I am getting to there. I look at our prison situation and the reason that tax payers keep spending more money on these prisons is they think that there's nothing but black folks behind bars. And I look at the marijuana situation historically and marijuana was a crime until the majority population discovered that it was white teenagers who were smoking it and so they got rid of it. And my suspicion is that the reason we aren't doing anything about AIDS in this country, and this goes back to a bias a former president had, they see it as an African situation initially and they see it as an African American issue in Pittsburgh and until somehow we're able to persuade them that this particular problem goes across lines-- socio-economic and racial, very quickly, until they see that I don't think we're going to get any resources put to the problem. ...and the university might be able to help in that regard.
ESTHER BUSH:
I just want to make a few statements. Having run a million dollar AIDS program in the city of Hartford, when I came to Pittsburgh I was shocked that there wasn't more involvement by the community, black and white, for rich and young addressing the issue. AIDS right now, the gender is changing, there are more women. It's absolutely becoming browner, across the board and it's not...when you talk about the African American community research has shown something that black folks in this room automatically know: When you talk about mental health issues and when you talk about homosexuality, black people aren't involved in any of those. And that is a problem for the provider and for the community and that is very real. So it's not just conversation, research has proven it, so when we look at the issue of AIDS, it is such in a denial situation a different kind of outreach has to be provided. In Hartford, I was a person who was against a needle exchange program when I first went to Hartford because of what Congressman Rengal was saying in Harlem "Never a needle exchange program in Harlem." Until I did enough research to understand that needle exchange programs were saving lives. I support needle exchange programs. Can you see a needle exchange program in Pittsburgh?
AUDIENCE MEMBER:
There is one! It's called Prevention Point Pittsburgh. It's 10 volunteers who have been giving out needles for 5 years in this city with no official support of any kind.
ESTHER BUSH:
Well I am pleased to hear that, and this is the first I am hearing of it. And so it underscores my point, but I am very glad that we are hearing it now. And also Pennsylvania is just starting to take the appropriate statistics to document. So there's a lot of issues where Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania are behind, but the issue of AIDS is very significant in the African American Community and the statistics are going up higher and it's not just in Africa, it's in our hometown and it needs to be addressed, but first of all, we have to own it.
JARED COHON:
Thank you. Very insightful comments. Yes sir...
AUDIENCE MEMBER:
Just for the sake of the recording device I was going to ask the question about the media, but since President Bush made a comment about what we should do as individuals, I am going to make a comment rather and this was at the crux of the Baumhammers/Tyler situation. Channel 11, they were using vocabulary which to me did not sit well. When they talked about Taylor they talked about a shooting "rampage" and they talked about Baumhammers they talked about a shooting "spree." Well, I am a foreign learner of English so I tend to look at those things. If you tell me that's a shooting spree I see somebody who is going for a joyride, talking about a rampage I see somebody who is mad. I called Channel 11 and what they told me was that they are using those two terms interchangeably. But I told them, just listen the news are on, listen to what they are saying. Although they used it interchangeably, 6 out of 8 times they used rampage for Taylor and all the other times they were using Shooting Spree for Baumhammers. So my question was, what are you going to do about it? Mind you, they told me that they do not choose which term to use, and for me that was an eye-opener. Because that day I decided after I defend my dissertation, I am out of Pittsburgh
AUDIENCE MEMBER:
I have a question about the city of Pittsburgh School Districts. My son has been accepted into Schenley, and we went there to visit and I was really disturbed to find that it's sort of broken down into 3 layers. A lot of the black students that are going to that school do most of their courses in the basement or were congregated in the basement there was a security guard at one of the ends of the doors in the basement and when we went upstairs we didn't see as many African American or black students, and I am wondering what we can do based on what Pres. Bush said about how white children are influenced by what they see in the media . What's happening in our schools if we are segregating even within our schools in such a subtle way?
SALA UDIN:
Yeah, uh, the segregation that you see is more devastating than the geographic segregation that you see in first floor second floor basement, because that segregation that you see in Schenley reflects a programmatic segregation of students that are in various programs. And the unfortunately if you changed the program locations and put the course of the African American dominated on the third floor, and reversed it, you see the same pattern reversed. Now that isn't helping them that they are on the third floor instead of the basement--they aren't learning what they need to be learning. I wouldn't care if they were in the basement or under the basement if they were learning the things that they need to be learning and that's what the problem is. We need to look, even in these magnet schools that we love so much, who is applying for which course and who is involved with which courses because there is a -- if you look at Schenley's general population, it looks like a diverse population, but when you look at who's in which program, it is segregated within those programs and that's what we have to continue to work on, and it's an awareness of that I think is important to bring up.
JUSTIN JOHNSON:
Let's not lose what may have been her point, or I guess maybe I should make it my point. I was with the Pittsburgh schools from 1964-1977 and I recall that one time I was trying to get Mrs. McNary to put a magnet program in 5th Avenue before they closed it down, and my thinking was if we put the quality programs in the black communities that might change some thinking. Now I want to come back to what I heard her saying. First of all I agree with you, that we have programmatic discrimination and it's important that within many of those programs that we increase the amount of learning that is going on. But I would submit that there is a continuing correlation between where we put programs and what we think about the people who are in those programs. Why is it that the Pittsburgh cultural trust wants to take the performing arts and put them downtown? What's wrong with Homewood/Brushton? Sure, they're saying that it'll be closer to all the other programs and I'll accept that, but if you look at all of the quality magnet programs, largely they are going to put them geographically where the majority population feels comfortable, so I think the answer to her question is: Let's call John Thompson, and let's ask Dr. Thompson whether there might be some adjustments that can be made to ameliorate what sounds to me to be a very damaging situation with respect to what those kids are going out of school with. That's just my own vie, and I don' t know if John Thompson has given any thought to that.